Throughout 2021, Resident Advisor will host a series of interviews in partnership with Black Minds Matter UK, an organisation whose mission is to connect Black individuals and families with free mental health services by professional Black therapists.

The interviews, which will be published as written features and audio RA Exchanges, focus on Black creatives working in electronic music at all levels. These conversations will touch on issues surrounding mental health in keeping with Black Minds Matter UK's mission to "make mental health topics more relevant and accessible for all Black people in the UK, removing the stigma and remodelling the services to be relevant for the Black community."

On this edition, Andrew Mensah chats with Hannah Shogbola, the London-based talent and booking agent who has worked for fabric, United Talent, Echo Location and has recently founded her own consulting agency, DAJU.

This is a full transcript of this week's edition of the RA Exchange, edited slightly for length and clarity.

Hello, hello. Welcome to our exchange in collaboration with Black Minds Matter. I'm with Hannah Shogbola, who is a superstar. Is that too much of a superlative? She is a big time agent, she works for United Talent and Echo Location Agency as well. And she has recently started her own creative consultancy, called DAJU. She's making a name for Black women in the music industry. And so she gives secrets from that. First of all, thank you for joining me. How are you today?

I'm good. I mean, it's Friday. So that's often a nicer day of the week, one might say, and I'm feeling quite relaxed, actually, which is nice. I don't feel overwhelmed with the prospect of going to numerous shows at the weekend, which is what I'm usually doing. This weekend is kind of calmer. So I'm feeling good. In one sentence, I feel good.

Could you tell us a bit about your personal journey into music?

So how did I get into the industry? I think there are two poignant stories about how I first fell in love with the prospect of working within the music business. And that would probably be when I was about 13. I grew up in London and then I moved out to the countryside when I was around 12. And it was a really secluded place, quite secluded in terms of culture, as a Black person, which had both its pros and cons. And I got the opportunity to go, you know, for work experience. And I went, I had to apply to do it. And I managed to go back to London to do it because my dad still lived there. So I got to go and stay with him. And I did it for this music PR company, which is owned by a guy called Charlie Lysa. He now works for outside PR. But anyway, I went to do this two-week work experience. And something there just blew me away. And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, this is exactly what I want to do in some way, shape or form." I knew that I was not a talented musician. I wasn't an artist. I really can't sing. I definitely can't mix. But I was like, "What I do love is raving. I love music. So, how can I do this and be behind it?" That was the first memory of falling in love with what I really wanted to do.

You know, when you're a kid, sometimes you don't have ambition. And I was very much in a place which was quite dark. I won't go into it too deep. But it was definitely a positive for me to do that and gave me my love for it. And then secondly, my actual first job was working for this record distribution company called DatSound. That worked with a lot of UK-based hip-hop artists, people like Skinnyman, Klashnekoff, a load of MCs coming out of Leyton. And my job was to pack all the mailouts—but the physical ones back then. So you'd literally be in this studio, surrounded by boxes and you'd have to physically print out the promo release and then get the vinyl, all that sort of stuff. And I was terrible at it because I'd always get things wrong and send it to the wrong people. Anyway, I started working there with a guy called Matt. And that was my real first job, I think, where I was paid nothing but I was there. And that gave me a real insight into working in music. But yeah, it was jokes, because it was downstairs in this tiny little studio in Leyton. And then downstairs was the photography studio for RWD magazine. So it was a really nice demographic of people that were there. There was a woman, I think it was Jo Good who worked there, who was probably one of the only female radio bloggers that I knew back then who specialised in UK hip hop. So it was a real moment.

It's interesting that the way you started talking about that journey was the fact that it was a love for you and you came to the realisation that you weren't necessarily going to go down the route of a creative. And over the years, you have worked in quite a few different roles. I guess for most people, you kind of try something, work out if you like it, and then move on if that's not right for you. And I think it's quite telling, because there aren't really any set routes of progression, necessarily, in the music industry.

If you had the chance to ever go back and redo the way you've made your way up to this point so far, would you change anything?

I think I wouldn't so much change the route that I've taken. Because for me, a lot of the roles that I've taken on are because I hustle quite hard. And that's not to sound naff. That's because, essentially, I had to keep a roof over my head. And I had to do that by working. I didn't have the luxury of a choice of being like, I'm gonna go off and do this, because I really love it. I just knew that I loved music, and I loved doing events, and I loved backing people and looking after people. So I wouldn't change anything directly. I think there's a point to make about having gone through quite a few tough experiences, in terms of my progression throughout my different careers, that I would certainly like to change in a way that I would have preferred to have been at an old age at that point, or had the confidence to bite back and not put up with situations that arose which might have been predominantly quite sexist situations, or even racist situations—which do happen. They're really subtle, you know, we're talking about the microaggressions, etc. And I think I would only look back and think, "Oh, you didn't need to do that, you didn't need to put up with that." And then I would probably say that I wouldn't have stayed in working within nightclub culture for so long at a young age, when I was doing a lot of, what do you call it, artist liaison and stuff on the evenings? I think I did that for a couple of years and that was exhausting. Like, you know, in the office five days a week, and then in the club Fridays and Saturdays. But I wouldn't change it.

At the end of the day, you can say that all experiences help build you to who you are today. But as always, you have the luxury of hindsight, right? I wouldn't say exactly the same for me. I came into music only about seven or eight years ago. And I think, if anything, I probably would have tried to do it a bit sooner. So it was not really a decision once I was in the industry, but I think it was a life choice that would have made more sense if I started it a bit younger. On the flip side, you could also say having more experience working probably arms me a little bit better with more confidence about what my needs are at that stage in my life.

I find it quite apt that you mentioned microaggressions, and certain situations that might arise whilst working. We have been lucky enough to have had a really great report come out recently commissioned by the Black Lives in Music organisation and it was pretty eye-opening. I think it was something whose results we all knew, but I think it was great to have it in a format which is visible. Because people need to have the numbers to back things up, even though we all know it's true. There were quite a few results with regards to or relating to creatives and professionals. I'll go over some of the top-line ones. So three in five Black music creators have experienced direct or indirect racism in the music industry. And more than 71 percent have experienced racial microaggressions. Relating to the top line of music professionals, 80 percent of all Black music professionals agree that there are barriers to progression. 73 percent of Black music professionals have experienced direct or indirect racism, and 80 percent have experienced racial microaggressions. Generally, there's an overwhelming dissatisfaction with support of Black professionals in the industry. What were your feelings when this report came out? Can you reflect on anything personally in regards to it?

I mean, the feeling in response to seeing reports such as this is an immediate disappointment with where we are still at with such shocking statistics. And the reality is that it's slow to make stark changes. But we still have such a long way to go. And I think the first initial response is just disappointment. It happens quite often. The one thing with this report which I did find quite refreshing was that it was actually a report, which was activated by Black people, right. And I found that really good, because a lot of the reports that get flown across my desk quite often are not actually by people who are for the people that are actually doing the research. Does that make sense? So disappointing is probably what I mean. Who could sit here and say that this is a positive thing? It's still very much a negative thing. It's something that needs to be changed, and drastically. How we do that we can probably get into in a second.

I completely agree with you. There is disappointment there. But I think there's also almost a feeling of relief, as well. I guess that's why I mentioned the fact that it's there, visibly, for people to see. It's such a shame that that's what is necessary, but I think it's a good sort of platform to work off of, not that there haven't been many of those before. How do you see the next steps?

I think, going back to the report and its findings, one of the most beneficial things is pushing that into the faces of people: that we know that we are at this horrible crossroads where we have had a spotlight for the last two years, as people keep saying, and that this is a great achievement for people to now recognise the categorically wrong situations within employment, within Black music business particularly. But it's definitely about having these reports being constantly put in front of people's faces that need to see them, the leaders of these companies that we all work for, to remind them to continually push this, that this is not something that can just have the spotlight for a year and go away. This is something that we have to continue to drive. What I would talk about today is actually something which was really remarkable that happened recently. I'm now part of Power Up, which is an initiative started by a PR company, which is all about elevating 20 Black industry professionals and 20 Black creatives. And I didn't think that I would be eligible for it at all, because obviously I'm an agent and I have my job role, which I do with my incredible, wonderful artists. And then somebody hit me up and was like, "You should really go for this." And then I went for it. And the result and the outcome of that, and now being a part of this community is incredible.

So I'm now surrounded by 20 other industry professionals and our whole thing is weekly catch ups. We have career coaches, we have talks and panels. We engage with each other, we elevate each other, we empower each other, we give each other jobs. And it's something that's so refreshing, something that, actually, I cannot believe hasn't been done before. But the fact that it has makes me believe, in however many months or years down the line, that we are part of making a change of what these figures stand for. Also because it wasn't just about elevating musicians, that's what was so interesting about it. It was about industry professionals, it was not just based in London, it's a nationwide project. It's a yearly project that, each year, we then add 20 more people to. You can apply to it in order to get a grant or apply to it to become a part of that community. It's really incredible. I don't know what would be the right programme that has been set up. And I think that that's something that's really important to mention. And Joe and Ben have been at the forefront of this programme. So I definitely feel like it's an excellent thing to talk about. And also, for anybody that is actually listening to this, if you are seeking a graphic designer, web designer or an agent or manager or an artist, when you're looking for people that you want to reach out to, these are the programmes that you should be looking at. So I felt like it was important. Did that have relevance to your question?

Yeah, completely. It's something that I wanted to come back to you on as well, with regards to your own career, but it just made me think as you were talking about Power Up, about general support for Black professionals and Black creatives. That was one of the things that the report mentioned, that there was an overwhelming dissatisfaction with the amount of support that Black professionals actually receive working in the industry. I know you have this community now, which sounds like it is probably fulfilling that role, but what has your personal experience been working your way up in your career so far? Were there people who played a mentorship role?

For me, actually, when I think of mentors, and I look back, I wouldn't hate to use the words "I was extremely lucky," or whatever. But I worked at fabric for a good couple of years. And I don't know how I did it. I think, "How did I get it?" I was an intern. And I was so young, I think maybe like 18 or 19. I was super young anyway. And I was working in the press department with an incredible woman called Donna Hawley who was the head of fabric Press for 10 years. And I was doing these internship things, the press, whether it was going to make cups of tea or write something for me. Anyway, I got asked to cover a piece about Robert Hood. And I was like, "Who's this guy?" And then I listened to his music. I was like, oh my gosh, this is like a gospel choir, in my head. For me, this young kid from the countryside, who just loves to rave. And I thought, this is it. This is it. And then I think I wrote a piece. And I gave it to Donna, and she was blown away. And she then got me this job at fabric where I then ended up working for the booking team, on a Friday and Saturday night picking up Shaun Roberts, and particularly Judy.

So I was surrounded from a very young age in an incredible institution such as fabric, being surrounded by people like Judy Griffith, and Donna Hawley and Celine Kohr. It was incredible. These were three experienced, knowledgeable, really, really wonderful women who were at the helm in job roles that you would often never see on the outside for these big corporate companies. You know, Judy has been the lead booker at fabric for over 20 years. She is one of the strongest Black women I know, and one of the most caring. Her music integrity is second to none. And then you have Donna, who is just an absolute powerhouse. I remember being younger and sat in fabric being like "Wow." These women are incredible. Even now I'm so gassed, I'm smiling, because I remember being so young and being sat around London and then thinking, "I want to be like that." Like, Judy would sass into the office at 10 PM on a Friday, and then be talking about all these incredible DJs, and then I'd be sitting there silently. We had Google and stuff, but you didn't really have it on your phone back then. So I'd be writing them down and then going home and then trying to find out who these people were. I just have to really make a point on that. So for me personally, I did have, in the early stages of my career, some incredible women, particularly women of different ethnicities around me, but that was rare.

Then when I left that world, which was this underground, respectable world, and moved into more of a corporate world. And then I moved into the agency world, it was massively not that. There were strong women around me, yes, but there were women that would pick me apart, there were women that would not advocate me or empower me. They would, you know, plant the seeds of these horrible insecurities or shut you down, because they thought that you were gonna take over their job or something. But on the flip side, there are other people that have been a continuous part of my career in the agency world, which has been incredible, and loving people like Samantha Kirby Yoh, Belinda Law, Obi Asika. But I feel like it's interesting with that question, thinking back that actually, it was, in my younger years, in my most formative years, and in much more underground environments, that I was most supported. In terms of people that I looked up to and who genuinely cared about me. I still speak to Donna all the time. I went for dinner with Judy and Celine the other week. That's mad.

That's really quite amazing. And it's wonderful to hear that, because I don't think it's that common that you get that with anyone in their career. I wonder how you feel with that support coming so early on in your career. On reflection, how do you think that would have played out comparatively, if you had it like a little bit later? How significant do you think it was that it had to happen so early on in your career?

I think by having it so early on, it enabled me to understand the importance of having positive people around you. I think as I grew older, and went into different parts of the music industry, more than that, it wasn't so much about having a mentor that was maybe my senior, or working alongside me, and that made me understand that I needed to have positive people around me. So with that, I always navigated towards, or gravitated towards, ensuring that I had a really strong network of people. And that wasn't done purposely, in a blissful way. That happened really naturally. And again, those women were my friends who often worked in and out of the industry, but definitely supported me in the later years in life. But I felt that by having that influence from like the Donnas, and the Judys and Celines, so early on, it was like having family. I always wanted to maintain that environment. And no matter what job I went into, particularly some of the bigger corporations that I worked for, where I felt completely alienated, I knew that I could go home and call up one of these people, and they would be there for me, and they would encourage me, and they would always have my back. And that was something that's really important. That's not to say you don't go through ups and downs.

I want to circle slightly back again, because you mentioned the fact that you're still in contact and have close relationships with some of these people. There was a genuine feeling of care as well there. I think that's definitely something which can be overlooked in the industry altogether. Particularly now, as we are becoming a society much more aware of the importance of well-being and good practices of mental health. So, I guess these are two points really. Because you did say that you had people around you, women around you specifically, who were of mixed heritage and there was also this nurturing atmosphere in your relationships with them. How would you say this has translated into your work now? Is it something you carried forward, this nurturing aspect of your job?

Absolutely. I definitely continue flying that flag of nurturing, I think that comes naturally to me. I'm a cook. I'm a provider. That's just me, that's naturally what I've always been like. And one of the things, when I became an agent, that I always promised myself as I started to build my roster was always working with like-minded people, no matter the genre, that it was people that I respected as a person. I respected their craft, but I also felt like I wanted to care for them and look after them, but they also equally do so for me. They give me energy, they give me power and they add. It's like a two-way street, isn't it? So you don't just take, take, take from people. So I definitely do that. I guess what's weird now? I'm thinking in my head of all the wonderful clients that I've worked with, and I've now realised how old I am, and they probably look at me like a mom. But I'm just very close. You know, like with Heléna Star (who I manage)—she is just an incredible, big energy of life. And I definitely feel like I'm trying to nurture the way that I was nurtured and equally with Jaguar, Emerald, Alex, Alexis, there are so many. Even I'm just literally sat here, marinating in my brain on that. And I think the answer to your question is, I most certainly try to continue nurturing and caring for people in a family way. Because I believe that agents and managers are responsible for a lot of people's livelihoods and their lives. And that all moulds into one at the end of the day. And I think there's something inherently wrong if you're doing that and it's just based on financial benefit. To be honest, gosh, that makes me a terrible agent, doesn't it? And I've got a proper bad cackles. No, but it's true. So definitely nurturing people, sometimes I probably nurture people a bit too much, to be honest. Because then when you do that, and somebody screws you over, then you'll get pissed, but it is what it is in its swings and roundabouts.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I think that—particularly the point you made about being and having such a big and pivotal role in someone's career—decisions you make will affect them directly. The actual impact is significant, essentially. So there is a need to have a bit more about your relationship than just it being a financial thing, and the communication being all transactional. I say that because, as you're talking, you kind of remind me of when I used to do a bit of managing myself as well for a couple of years. And you very much find yourself feeling like a bit of a shoulder sometimes, or as a sort of parental figure. But it's nice, I think it makes the job feel a bit more human. And I think it's necessary. You kind of need to be able to be there for someone if they need to talk or if they need to actually speak on a level which isn't necessarily just about the business and just about what's next coming in, in terms of work.

This kind of leads on to your work with DAJU. First of all, could you tell us a little bit about what it is, in your own words?

It's my baby, DAJU. And this was born two years ago, and this came about from years of all the side work that I've done. And maybe I should start off by saying DAJU stands for "positive" in Yoruba. And for me, any work that I'm doing has to be positive. It can't be negative or like a stressful situation. Obviously, there's stressful pressure that we're all going to be under, so to speak, but what it stands for is positivity. And it's about bringing in positive work into people's lives, whether that be through consultancy, or whether that be through artists' development, and those are the key two things that I do with DAJU. So, yeah, it's my baby. Brand new. And I love it.

How do you feel the response has been so far? You work with a multitude of people from different positions. How have you found its progression, its development so far?

Really good, actually. I feel like for the first six months, I was so quiet about it, because with me, I always want to deliver before you shout about things. I think a real common mistake is for people to go out with things, just OTT about stuff. And with me, because it's so serious to me, and the work that I do is so important, I wanted to be able to do things first before I even put it on social media or even told people what I worked with. So yeah, I downplayed it a lot. And then the response when I started to do things was so positive. But it was actually quite humbling, to be really honest. Like we did a project for AFROPUNK, which was amazing, with an amazing artist called Loshh. We did a live recording stream for him. And then I did a project for SXSW, which was the first ever Afrobeat showcase that they've done, which was all about elevating and empowering artists from across Ghana, Nigeria, and the UK. I did those projects. And then I was like, "Okay, I can talk about this." And then I did, and then I saw my first artist, Heléna Star, and that was amazing. These are all very special projects, they are only taken on on a case by case basis. And that is really important to me. I never take on anything that I can't deliver on. Well, gosh, I shouldn't say that, because then if I do something, and it's terrible...I just feel like I've come on here and dug a really big hole.

No, not at all. So I guess it's a certain element of holding yourself accountable to what you do. So I think it's totally fine. I think there's nothing wrong with aiming high and holding high standards for yourself. I think it's the way we achieve things, right?

Could you elaborate on what creative consultancy means in terms of DAJU and how it may be different to projects that you might find elsewhere?

So one of the things is that for quite a few years, I love doing a lot of not-for-profit work. And that might be doing lectures, by doing panels and talks. And that's been something I've done for over 10 years now, not this whole spotlight, suddenly everybody's doing a panel about diversity. Like, let's actually do shit that's good and actually gonna deliver. So one of the things with DAJU that was really important to me was that I often get approached, with the previous work that I've done, to come in and consult with a lot of larger companies. And I wanted to make sure that that was being done in the right way. So, for example, I work with the British Underground, Royal Albert Hall, with loads of Roundhouse, who I just did a great project with. I also do a lot of lectures at places like the University of Westminster. A lot of schools I work in, a lot of colleges like Notting Hill and Walthamstow. I guess what that means for me with DAJU, what's so important about it, is that it's getting right to the core. My whole thing is about kind of trying to be a bit of an advert for enticing people to come into the agency world in particular. So I guess DAJU really stands for doing things like going into the core, and you know, we do a lot of advice with DNI consulting. But that is done in a way that is thought out. It's structured, it's about timelining things and putting in targets. It's also about bringing in full sets of teams. So one of the things that I shot recently, which was a music documentary that I made—and I try my very hardest with anything that I do with DAJU—when I go to my network of people, I will always try and build teams that are always people of colour, particularly Black people.

I was really proud to say that the last project that I did—and we shot in these amazing studios that have now actually been bought by Abbey Road—the whole team was all people of colour, and it was just such a wicked day, you know, and then I kind of felt like it was the dream that I'd always had to do things like that. Because I believe when we are working with artists in particular, that you must make them feel supported. You must make them feel safe and in an inclusive space that's not intimidating and wrong. People have to understand the code. They have to understand the music and they have to understand the people. And way too often I've been in situations, whether that be at a club setting up for a DJ which has a whole sound team that just do not reflect the people that are playing, or whether that be on a music video shoot where you have a young, Black female who's singing and then just looking at a completely whitewashed production team that not only don't understand the music, but don't understand the person. And that is so alienating and lonely and can actually also be quite scary. And I've witnessed that firsthand. So for me, DAJU was so important because of those creative consultancy jobs that I do. It is about empowering not just the company, the people, the artists, but also the whole team that works within that. So that's one of the things that we try and do and that we have delivered on in the past and that we will try to continue to do. Gosh, that felt like alright, PR's spelled right in there.

No, I think it's amazing. It's something which we definitely need more of. And I think it's, as you say, so important that the people you work with, the people who are the creatives who are trying to express themselves and share their music, feel like they're in a space where they can actually do that, where it's not being received in a way which wasn't intended, or like there isn't understanding. Like, we're the people that we're working with, and I think that's great.

That kind of leads on to thinking about how we are making sure we're caring for ourselves and our own mental well-being. And that definitely ties in as well with the report. There are so many small things which can affect someone and their mental health working in this industry. And that is something which will help a creative person of colour feel more comfortable in their own space. Like, it'd be one less thing or one less situation or scenario which would affect them mentally. Do you personally practice well-being? And if so, what is it you do to help yourself keep going and deal with the daily stresses?

It wasn't until maybe two or three years ago that I really started to look after my well-being, so to speak. I guess that comes from my background. My culture particularly is very much like, you know, "There's nothing wrong with you." One of the things—well, I do a few things now—I definitely like is yoga. I practice meditation, which is absolutely key. I pray. You know, really taking time for yourself, but actually finding out what are the things that benefit you. There's a lot of things. I feel that people might feel under pressure, that there is this big drive of, you know, "Be good, look after yourself, detox, cleanse." There's an element where we have to be careful about not making people feel that in order to be good, you have to do these things. The point is that in order to be your best self, and to look after yourself, you have to work out what is going to be beneficial to your mind, what's going to be beneficial to your body. Pick and choose your battles. But if you can research and find out what's good for you, like for me, personally, yoga was great. I got into that through a friend who suffered a really traumatic experience in her life. And I went with her for a bit of support, actually, and then I loved it.

And then therapy is incredible. I think you have to find the right therapist. Everybody knows the spiel: you decide to delve into your background and look at what childhood things come up in life, or you have to think about the future, if it's CBT. I think it's just important to research and find what's good. I'm very lucky to have a very close friend in my life who's currently training to be a therapist. She's so holistic, I love it. She's essentially my free therapist. But no, she definitely helps and has guided me to kind of understand the needs that I might have, and given me the push to go out there and be like, "You know what, therapy is good." You should go if you can get it and you can find it. If you can afford it, do it. But there are also small things that you can do. For me, sometimes cooking. That's my space away from work, away from everything. That again, sounded really cheesy, but best believe that it happens and I do it and it's really nice. But yeah, meditation, yoga, therapy. Sounds like I'm from LA man, jeez Louise, what's happened?

I think it's really important what you said about finding what is good for you personally. There's nothing that fits all. And actually coming to that realisation, when there is something that makes you feel good, when you realise actually, this is something which calms me or this is something where I feel like I forget about everything else, whatever that may be, I think you have to embrace that and make sure you can build it into some sort of routine for yourself, to help yourself come to a more level space in your head mentally. I think it's interesting that you were so open, because I think it'd be great if people were a lot more open to talking about the fact that they need to do it. Because once I actually went to therapy last year I had a lot of conversations with people beforehand, who I didn't know actually did it. And it was so enlightening, because I realised that there are so many people around you who feel like it's not something they would ever be doing. But then you realise more people are actually talking to people, talking to someone who is impartial. And that's really important. Particularly when you have something that is affecting you in a more severe way, but just day-to-day, I think it's quite a good thing. Like, just to have someone who you can vent to. Or you might have something which is underlying, which has been there for a long time but not seriously affecting you so day-to-day. But it really helps if you can talk to someone about it.

Before we go like it'd be great to hear about anything that you've got coming up, if you can talk about it for either yourself personally, or things that you're doing with DAJU.

Well, we're currently in the midst of producing our next programme, which we are shooting at Abbey Road Studios, which is incredible. I'm so excited. And that will be coming out next year. So I won't go too much into that. But that's incredible. And just another fantastic thing we did last weekend: I did a little collab with Heléna Star and Mensah. And we did our first Supper Club, which was all about celebrating West African culture and food. And it was delightful. I feel like I want to finish on a little tip, actually, that my therapist gave me, because the other day I was so stressed out. And I know that we should be talking about Black Minds Matter and about how big mental health is and how much we must not be afraid to talk about it. And it's really lovely to be able to have this conversation with you. But I was really stressed out the other day, and my therapist always sends me these paperworks to read over. And I never do it because I find it–so anyway, I was really pissed off. And I was reading something. And she was like, You know what, if you're really stressed out, or in a situation that's completely overbearing, just kick back, close your eyes for a minute, then open them and look in the room and just count 10 colours that you can see, and close your eyes again. And I tell you what, it really sorted me out. Have a go.

I definitely will do that, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you.